00:00
Jane Goodland: Hello and welcome to the LSEG Sustainable Growth podcast where we talk to leading experts about sustainability and finance and everything in between. I'm Jane, Goodland. And this week I had the opportunity to spend time with Shami Nissan, who's a partner at Actis, which is a leading global investor in sustainable infrastructure. And they've raised over 25 billion US Dollars since inception. Shami will share insights from some of their investments, including an integrated, renewable energy project so large that it will be viewable from space and a data centre in Nigeria, achieving great sustainability performance. But before we hear from Shami a quick reminder to follow us and rate us on Spotify, apple podcasts or any other platform you use enjoy the show .
Hello, Shami! It has been a very, very long time. I am so pleased to see you, and in fact, we did our master’s degree back in the mid-nineties, which means it's 30 years since we've seen each other properly is. Can you believe that all I can say is, you're looking mighty fine to me, and not a day older than when we saw each other. But what I want to know is, what have you been up to tell me? What's your career been like?
01:13
Shami Nissan: Thanks, Jane, so great to see you and thank you so much for having me on this podcast. What's it been like? My gosh! I've done so many different things. It's been amazing, all of it in sustainability. So, we finished our master’s all those years ago and actually, what I did straight after that. Was that the tutor that I had said to me? There's a there's a role in the research department at Imperial. So, would you like to do that? So, I became a full-blown academic for a short amount of time, just less than a year. But I found that really interesting.
So that was really interesting. And then I had the opportunity to work for United Nations Development Program. And I moved to Central America spent some time in Guatemala and also in Mexico, and that was really focused on sort of community development and social projects which was a really nice balance of the social side to the like more environmental side of the master’s that we did. And then, after that, I spent 10 years at Pwc. Came back to London, spent 10 years in what was called the sustainability and climate change team. So that was very much like advisory and consultancy services, and much of my time there was spent with financial services, lots of the large banks that we would know and recognize, sort of working on sustainability policies and strategies and things like this. And then I moved on and joined Actis, where I am now, and that was about 10 and a half years ago, as Head of Sustainability, and I'm now a partner at the firm, and it's been one of the most fascinating bits of my career. Honestly, because I can honestly say that I have never had a single day the same at work which I love.
02:54
Jane Goodland, LSEG: Yeah, well, that's supposed to be the secret to a great career, right in terms of variety.
And you've put in a good stretch there as well. So that's 10 and a half years. It must still be really interesting to you. So tell me more about Actis, people might not have come across Actis before. But it's a sustainable infrastructure investor. Right? So tell me a bit about the history and what it does.
03:15
Shami Nissan: So Actis is a sustainable infrastructure investor Actis invests predominantly in what we call growth markets. So others might sort of say, that's global, South or non-OECD. It's essentially everything outside of North America and Western Europe. But much of it really is in that kind of global south domain which is super interesting. I'll come back to that in a second. Actis history Actis has been around 24 years, and before that the genesis of Actis is that it span out of a DFI Development Finance institution, the Uk One which was at that time called CDC, today we call it BII.
03:55
Jane Goodland: Actually I remember that when it was called CDC.
03:58
Shami Nissan: Yeah. And that's quite an important point to make, not just like from a historical reference point of view, but because of the Dfi nature of CDC. As it was, there was very much a strong ethos and mandate actually to make these investments with an eye on sustainable development or through a sustainability, you know. Then it was more called responsible investment lens. When Actis was then created by the founders, they really carried over that sustainability piece. So Actis, when it was founded, was kind of one of the first private markets, investors that had an actual in-house dedicated ESG sustainability team, and that piece around sustainability being integrated into investment decision making was always there and I think, for some others it came along after. So they had to sort of reverse engineer to integrate. And with Actis it was always there from the beginning. So you know, I found that to be a real kind of obviously for my role as a head of sustainability, a really great environment within which to work and a great framework to kind of get, you know, a lot of traction and success in this area.
05:03
Jane Goodland: So your role, What's your kind of mandate? Is it to make sure that you're integrating sustainability in an in a kind of really solid way into your investment thesis. But what like day to day? What do you do.
05:15
Shami Nissan, Actis (she/her): It's a great question. Yeah. So high level, the Actis approach is sustainability is integrated into investment decision making. And we're really focused on linking sustainability to value. So it's not philanthropy. It's not CSR, it's not because it's a faddish kind of strategy.
It's because to invest in physical infrastructure in our markets and not pay attention to ESG sustainability issues is just not responsible and prudent investing. There are material, significant risks and opportunities linked to ESG issues in our markets when it comes to infrastructure. And it's really important that as part of our due diligence process in particular, from a kind of downside protection risk management point of view that we take a really broad but also deep. Look at all of those issues, so that we're really comfortable. What we're investing in, and we go in with eyes wide open. We always follow international best practice standards. So that might be like IFC world Bank, E and S performance standards that some people will be familiar with. And then, once we make that decision to invest a big part of my role, and what my team does is really just managing, helping to create value, preserve value during that asset management phase. And we work really closely with all of our portfolio companies to do that, we quite often, for many of them, create a new role called CSO, or equivalent head of sustainability. It might be environmental social health and safety. The title doesn't matter so much. The point is that somebody with a very senior position usually reporting to C-suite has accountability for this whole area. So you know, a key kind of secret sauce, if you like, is that we install somebody qualified with expertise whose day job at Portfolio company level is to own this agenda, and then our job as an investor is to support them. Be a critical friend. Discuss the strategy. How far do we want to go? What's the roadmap? Are we being ambitious enough? But we're not doing it on their behalf. We're supporting as an investor. So those 2 pieces the kind of pre investment DD, and then the asset management phase are a big part of what I do, and I would say the third part that's very important is engaging with our clients. So the capital providers, we call them LP’s, limited partners, the ones who are essentially like entrusting us with their dollars to deliver those returns, but to invest in a responsible way.
07:47
Jane Goodland: And can I just ask about those Lp’s, those limited partners in private equity? who are they? Are they big financial institutions? Or are they kind of individuals, or kind of what's your kind of client? Mix roughly.
07:58
Shami Nissan: Yeah. So it's a really broad mix. It's really broad geographically, it's a lot of institutional investors. It could be endowments, family offices, lots of kind of state pension plans, sovereign wealth funds. So it's a really broad range of LP type. And you know, as I said geographically, it's everything from sort of North America to Asia, Middle East, and in between. So I have very interesting kind of conversations with all of them about what is important to them from a sustainability policy point of view. And it's definitely not a uniform global picture. And obviously, it's dynamic as well in terms of what people are interested in, and, as we know, Europe, for example, really progressive on the regulatory side, so many of the European lps are very interested in in terms of disclosure and reporting and data integrity and that sort of thing, perhaps less so in other areas. But overall, I would say, you know, in my time here over the last decade, focus attention, interest on sustainability data, qualitative and quantitative, has massively increased. And we've moved much more from kind of very perfunctory box sticky questions like, have you signed up to pri to much more? How? Tell me how you do this? Show me how you do it, and how do you add value.
09:22
Jane Goodland: Yeah and it must be quite a hard job. I’m just thinking about. You know, you've got lots of different clients with probably varying different degrees of appetite for this, and we'll come back later in the conversation, I think, to talk about kind of what we're seeing in terms of some of the market trends and dynamics happening right now, and some of the splitting in many senses of kind of preferences around this. So I appreciate that your job is not easy, because you're probably trying to keep many, many people happy at the same time, which has its own challenges. So we'll come back to that a bit later.
But so, and I guess one of the things I'm quite interested to explore with is this whole investing in growth markets. So we've had guests on in the past to talk about some of the challenges of investing sustainably in emerging markets, for example. And certainly that's something that we come across just more generally in the market conversations that we have around this, I guess the perceived or real heightened risks of investing in certain emerging markets, and that becoming problematic. And we know that there's a big investment gap to finance the transition globally to a low carbon economy. And that's particularly big in some of the emerging markets. So I'm kind of keen to understand how Actis approach is different and how you get comfortable, that you're not kind of embedding more risk by investing those markets. And actually, that risk is, is absolutely kind of fine to take, and is worth the reward.
10:51
Shami Nissan: Yeah. So I mean, it's a great point. So you know, the perception versus reality point is really important here. So there is a perception of heightened risk connected to some of these markets. And you know it's unfortunate that it's there, because it doesn't actually hold up. When you look at some of the stats. Obviously, people think about things like currency and political regulatory operational risks more broadly, sustainability risks, it's fair to say, can manifest in different ways in emerging markets. And that's the bit that I focus on. And I would say, sort of just zooming out for a second. You know what Actis brings is literally decades, not just Actis, but CDC. The decades of experience of investing in these markets. And I think what's really important to give comfort to our lps. Is that we are the right partner because we have that track record, and we have been doing this for a long time. So we have the tools to really mitigate the real risks and we can deliver, you know, those returns, and we can also deliver the sustainability outcomes. In other words, we manage and mitigate the sustainability risks, and we deliver on the opportunities. And by that I mean, we try to invest only in sustainability solutions as sectors. So you know, a North Star kind of question for us might be, Is the investment we're about to make in this sector in this country, you know, contributing to address some of the Sdg. Challenges that we all know exist. If it's contributing a solution great, if it's going to exacerbate a negative situation. Further, it's probably not something that we want to be doing. So that's kind of quite an important kind of guiding moment. And then really, it comes down to looking at the sustainability and ESG risks, really doing our due diligence and understanding that in our markets there are things that we need to pay special attention to that we might not in others, and some of those are unsurprising. So it could be. You know, health and safety standards. It might be things like land rights and title and deeds, and the fact that we might have traditional owners of land. So you have to ask yourself the question, how can I have a legitimate legal, valid transaction with somebody about leasing their land or buying their land if they themselves don't have like legally recognised documents. So we look at all of these things. We look at the presence of indigenous people, even nomadic people that might not be based in those areas but need access because they're passing through. So lots of these kinds of questions. We look at supply chain risks, We look at biodiversity and nature risks often in our markets. We're talking. This is large physical infrastructure. You might be bumping into more nature sensitive areas than we have in developed world where we've developed so much that we don't have many kind of critical habitats left or endangered species to threaten. So the breadth of things we really need to kind of have you know, detailed knowledge of is significant. And because my myself and my team, which is, you know, 6 people collectively, we have something like a hundred years of experience doing this. That's really important. We're drawing on that institutional knowledge to ensure that we're focusing on the right things and making the right calls. And I think that is the kind of formula for the success that we've had today. I think if you were a sustainability person and you just landed in a job kind of doing infra investing in growth markets. It's not necessarily the case that everything you knew before is transferable and relevant. So I hope I've answered the question, Jane, but I think that's important.
14:28
Jane Goodland: I think it's clear that obviously there's a lot of thought that goes into that due diligence process, but also something that kind of comes to mind is the fact that it doesn't sound like that. This is a binary process whereby you put all your research inputs into due diligence and Bing outcomes. The answer is, yes, it's kind of it's a kind of valid investment. It sounds like it's much more nuanced than that in terms of making judgments around. Actually on a kind of total view, actually is the sustainability profile of that particular investment, something that you can get comfortable with in the context of that particular region. In the context of that particular country, for example.
15:09
Shami Nissan: Yeah. And one of the things I should have said, maybe you know, as part of that you're absolutely right is that we always invest in the right sectors, so to speak. And I want to. Maybe, you know, emphasize with the listenership of the podcast, that just because somebody might be investing in an inherently impactful or energy transition sector, let's say, renewable energy generation, which Actis is a kind of leader on. You're investing in solar parks, or perhaps wind farms, etc. It doesn't necessarily mean
that it's a slam, dunk sustainability investment. The sector is absolutely, you know, in our markets, displacing coal often so massively contributing to avoidance of Co. 2 emissions. However, you can still have lots of social issues and nature biodiversity challenges linked to those types of investments. So you don't get to pick a sector that's inherently positive, and then kind of sit back.
My job is done. There's always those layers of complexity. So yeah. And I think you know, back to the point on the lack of capital, maybe flowing to energy transition infrastructure that number. I think you might have had Tim from the International Energy Association on previously, but that number is that 15% of global clean energy spend, only 15% is coming to emerging markets.
Actually, we need the majority of it to be coming to emerging markets. A, because globally, we need to address climate change. And we just need more of that energy transition infrastructure. B, because there's a scarcity of that infrastructure in those markets. C, those markets is where all the population growth is happening. 85% of the world's population today actually lives in those markets. And then D is because we have huge, natural, abundant resources in the global south. And by that I mean irradiation for solar panels and wind for the turbines. So actually, you can have a much greater energy yield in some of those markets than putting that infrastructure in developed world. So for all those reasons, we really need to flip that ratio of only 15% of capital is flowing. There.
17:18
Jane Goodland: Yeah, absolutely. I think your list of 4 there is just so compelling, isn't it? In terms of it? It's kind of mind boggling. Why you know, this isn't happening more at scale. And I guess that's the whole work of the ongoing cops right in terms of trying to get that climate finance flowing in the right ways, and, you know, kind of trying to address some of the hurdles that exist for should I say more traditional investors or more risk averse investors, or whatever? But yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a very interesting topic. And yeah, the I think Tim Gould from the idea you know that they're putting out some really useful stats but it shows the fragility of that client clean. I can't say the words today. The fragility of the clean energy investment is that the concentration is in China and North America, and Europe. So okay, I'm curious to know, actually, can we just touch on the sectors that you invest in? Because I'm not sure that we've covered that yet, and it might be quite useful. And then perhaps, we can delve into a real life example because I love a real life example. But first just walk me through the sectors because you did touch on that the fact that you are so one is obviously renewable energies. But what are some of the other areas you invest in.
18:23
Shami Nissan: Yeah, so renewable energy is a big part of it. We also invest in transmission and distribution. So those are the cables, the wires. That. Can you know that? Take energy and power and bring it to businesses, cities, population, centres, and kind of last mile to households? So it's what we think of it as really critical kind of enabling infrastructure to the generation side. We also invest in real estate and in particular data centres is really, really kind of interesting area where there's a lot of demand, a lot of interest. It's very topical. Much discussion today about data centres in particular, with regards to sustainability. And then also sort of more quote unquote traditional infrastructure. So, for example, toll roads. So all of it is infrastructure, but different types of assets that we invest in. But I would say predominantly, probably our longest track record is in the energy generation space Invested, or we've become a shareholder in what is going to be the largest integrated renewables and energy storage project in the world.
It's in the Philippines. It's so large it's going to be apparently visible from space. And it's something like if you're a basket for all the basketball fans out there, it's something like the surface area of 85,000 basketball courts. So really, just vast. And it's going to provide enough power to provide electricity to 2.4 million households in the Philippines.
19:54
Jane Goodland: And what's the technology?
19:56
Shami Nissan: So, it's solar and battery storage.
19:59
Jane Goodland: Okay. That's incredible. So, it's being built now, is it?
20:04
Shami Nissan: Yes, yeah, it is. So that's an example of the types of projects that we do. I mean, they're not all at that scale.
You know, I think from an energy transition point of view, it's going to avoid 3.6 million tons of Co 2. It's displacing coal, basically in the context of the Philippines. So it's got a fantastic contribution to kind of climate change challenge. And as we've already discussed, obviously, the team is focusing heavily on all of the wider, broader kind of sustainability areas as well as focusing on opportunities. I do want to say it's not all about risk. So you know, we also focus a lot on things like one of the limitations to these new clean energy technologies like wind and solar is just talent engineers, technicians, people that know how to operate, build, and maintain. And we have a real dearth of talent, kind of globally, but in particular in some of our markets. So what we try and do with many of our projects and companies is create a kind of like vocational upskilling program so that we're providing a you know, local workers with an opportunity to gain a new skill set. And we focus on the skills that are needed at the construction site in a just in time fashion, so that we can, you know, produce a cohort of electricians that are immediately needed, so that we. We don't guarantee ever anyone a job, but we try and synchronize it to give them the best opportunity to actually get a job afterwards. So part of our social license. To operate strategy is to provide these kind of upskilling vocational training programs. So it sort of ticks the box of you know. Let's try and blitz the barrier about not having enough qualified staff. It provides economic empowerment to local people, social license to operate. If we can involve a healthy percentage of female workers which we always try to do. We also get the gender piece in. So it's really a great example of kind of like risk. You know that when risk and opportunity kind of become so connected. So that will be definitely a big feature of this project in the Philippines.
22:05
Jane Goodland: And can I ask about the practicalities of doing that? Because I mean, that sounds brilliant, you know, like great. But how do you do that. Who does that, presumably this project you're not the only investor there's other investors. Is this something? Is that kind of upskilling piece part of the kind of original kind of terms of reference of the project? Or is this something that Actis would go and do unilaterally.
22:28
Shami Nissan: So I would say, Actis has always focused on this, and we go back many years doing the same. Actually, in real estate. We did the same. I worked on a project. Gosh! It must be like 7 years ago in Nairobi, in Kenya, which was, you know, where we provided construction skills training to 300 local youth that were in employment or education. So we kind of have form in doing this. But what I would say, Jane is like, increasingly, these kinds of what should I call it? Like? Components of projects are really well received by the host country. And you kind of get more points in the bidding process if you like. If you can demonstrate that you have, like bought out program and a track record and something like investing to build the domestic talent pipeline in clean energy technologies of the future is just like a win win for everyone. So it becomes part of our ammunition, you know, to be successful in winning these projects. So I think increasingly what we used to do, and maybe we were very different and pioneering. Then it's becoming more the norm these days. it's great to kind of be able to say, Oh, it's not our first time doing this by the way, guys.
23:38
Jane Goodland: Yeah, yeah, listen to you speak actually reminds me that we've got someone coming on the show. I can't remember exactly when. But you know, in in the coming episodes, and we're going to be talking about green skills and I think I think it's not really talked about enough. Actually, because you know, there's research to say that there's we've basically got the kind of the really big, we've got a skills gap. Because really the whole transition to a lower carbon sustainable economy. Yes, it needs finance, of course, but it needs human capital as well.
And we've got a dearth of that at the moment. We've obviously got some, but you know there is a gap, and I think, without kind of a concerted effort and recognition to make sure there's talent at the point at which it's needed. Then we'll run into problems. And so it's really interesting to hear you talking about that as a component of what you're doing. And I think it sits really well with obviously infrastructure investing, which is longer term by its nature, etc. But you know there's a really clear win-win there in terms of the local talent pool as well as kind of the long term prospects. So that's really great. You've talked about projects in the Philippines. I'm going to be nosy here. Do you get to visit some of these things, and how much you get to travel? Cause I'm feeling really jealous about all these great places you must get to see. Do you go around the place?
24:50
Shami Nissan: Yeah, we do go. It's not always me. I mean my team, my fantastic team spends a lot of time on the road. So yeah, one of my colleagues is going to the Philippines in 2 weeks it will be her second visit there. We have just had another return from Peru. So we really are trying to stay connected to you know, our investees in a really hands-on way, and I think that's kind of the actor's hallmark. We tend to be a controlling shareholder and majority owner, so we feel very kind of responsible, accountable for the work that we all do so. Part of our approach is you know, for anything that's medium or high risk in the DD phase we're going to visit. And then we have those really important relationships to establish, especially early on, I think, in the relationship with the management teams of the portfolio companies. So going there spending time kind of we call it onboarding, you know, explaining who is Actis? What do we stand for? How are we going to work together? What are our expectations? How does this partnership look? So we spend a lot of time. But you really need to go there. It's really difficult to kind of get a real feel for these assets and their kind of context in situ and the challenges that they have like from a desk in London. So yeah, yeah, absolutely travel. And I've been fortunate to kind of go to a lot of amazing sites and I can't. I don't think you'd get the insight like from reading a report.
26:20
Jane Goodland: No, I don't think so. And also, it's about relationship building as well, isn't it? In terms of you know, can you genuinely build that kind of trust level of trust, and a relationship between you as the investor and kind of the project or the company as the recipient.
26:36
Shami Nissan: Yeah, it's so right, Jane. And one of the things that I've always tried to do about our approach is never portray us as like we're the investor, and we're coming to check up on you, or when lease or we're doing an audit. You know the goal here really is like partnership, and you want the management team to be in alignment about where we're all heading on sustainability leadership. And if you have that happy alignment, then it's a case of great actors. How can you help us? Because we have all the, you know experience, we have that institutional knowledge. Yes, we have a few scars on our back, but it's all about bringing that to them and walking down that road together. So we focus really hard, like you said, on the Trust and rapport building at the beginning. And then you know what we do with the businesses is that we also ask them to set up sustainability subcommittees. That report to the board and that's really important. So 4 times a year we sit together and I chair some of these. So it's really important for the dynamics of those committees that we've met, that we have relationships, you know, like a trusted relationships, a mutual one, where we can have no unpleasant surprises, but also that we can be like, I said earlier kind of a critical friend. It's not all going to be applause and cheering.
Need to sort of say, we need to move faster. Can we do this differently? And we do that absolutely when we need to. But all of that works much better if there is that relationship there, rather than being like purely transactional.
28:07
Jane Goodland: Yeah, absolutely. And these are relationships that go over a number of years, don't they? Because your what your investment time horizon is what 5ish years.
28:15
Shami Nissan: About 5, 6 years for most of our funds we have a longer life kind of infrastructure fund where it can be 10 years. So yeah, the relationships are important. And to that point we actually also have, like a once a year in person offsite where the CSOs come together. We all meet outside of London. We spend 2 or 3 days together talking about sustainability issues all day. And it's just amazing, because often, they haven't all met. They all do the same job, but maybe different assets, different countries for sure. And then, like they literally don't stop talking for 3 days, because they have so much to ask and share, and I always say to them, you don't need us to babysit or be the connector you've now met. So you are your own peer to peer support and learning network. And you know your challenge today could be somebody else's tomorrow, and then they can ring you. So that's a really, I think that's a really important part of how we do what we do as well, actually.
29:17
Jane Goodland: It sounds brilliant. It sounds so cool. I'm loving the sound of your job. So Shami, earlier, you mentioned data centres, which is very topical, as you said. And I think you've got a data centre investment at the moment, haven't you? Can you tell us about that? Because I guess I'm just quite curious to know. What does that look like through an Actis lens.
29:33
Shami Nissan: Yeah. You know, I get this question a lot. Hang on data centres. Is that even sustainable? How do we think about that? And you know, there's a lot of discussion in the media around our data centres and the corresponding energy that power that we need for the explosion of data centres that is to come. Is that actually a threat to energy transition? Because power demands kind of exceed in some countries the power that's available. Full stop. Never mind renewable. So we've seen moratoriums in some parts of the world on Data centre development because of energy security. So I think it's a really important point. So you know, we do invest in data centres. I don't think we cannot. As a society that is you know, we almost see, like digitization as kind of like a 4th utility. So our approach is very much to focus on. We've sort of defined a framework on what are the components of a sustainable data centre? A couple of those would be as much renewable power as possible and decarbonizing as much as possible the power source to the data centre. Another one is maximum efficiency of that power within the data centre itself. That's called pue. It's power usage effectiveness. So it's the metric that's important. Another one is water. It's not talked about too much yet, but it's going to become a really big issue.
In particular with AI data centres and cooling that's needed. We need, you know, we're going to have denser racks, more heat during processing, which means more cooling, more cooling also, by the way, needs more means, more power. So there's a lot to think about. But I guess, like you know, by way of examples. We, one of the investments that we have made is a data centre in Nigeria, quite a tough place to have a data centre from a cooling point of view. By the way, yeah, super humid and warm. But you know, we've managed to do some fuel switching there and achieve like quite a significant over 20% reduction in Co 2 emissions, which is amazing. We've done a social program by the way, on digital literacy that has benefited around 200 people. And we've also managed to certify this data centre according to the IFC Edge Green Building certification scheme. And that is the first data centre that has achieved that green building certification from IFC in all of Europe, Middle East and Africa. So you know, it's a great milestone for us. It was the 11th Green Building certified Green Building that Actis did. But the first data centre in EMEA is really significant and Just to give you like 3 quick stats. So to achieve that IFC green building certification it had to be, it was 35% more energy efficient than any others, 45% more efficient on water and 45% less embodied carbon. So you know, this shows if you focus on these issues, you can deliver these types of assets, and they will be, you know, cheaper to run, operate, and manage less. Co, 2 more social license to operate, more attractive to tenants, and ultimately to the exit to the buyer. You know, when you come to the exit phase.
32:48
Jane Goodland: And actually, really great that it's happening in Nigeria, because that kind of is a really great illustration of kind of saying, Well, you know from an investment perspective. It can be done there. It is being done there, and not only, you know, from a from an investment perspective, but from a sustainability perspective as well. So that's brilliant.
Shami. I think we've run out of time. I think we've been chatting for too long. I've just checked the time. So I'm going to say, thank you. We've covered so much ground today and I'm sure that people are going to be Googling Actis if they don't know your organization already, because I think it's fascinating. And I think we all need to be a bit more, Actis, really, don't we? So with that I'm going to thank you so much for your time and sharing those insights. It's been fascinating, and I look forward to seeing you soon. Let's not leave it 30 years again, shall we.
33:36
Shami Nissan: Jane, thank you so much that honestly, the minutes flew. So thank you for having me. It's been brilliant and thank you for all the questions.
33:51
Jane Goodland: I hope you enjoyed that episode with Shami Nissan from Actis. I found it an incredibly fascinating, eye-opening conversation. And if you want to find out more, then you can check out their website at Actis. If you've got comments, questions, or someone you'd like us to talk to. Then do get in touch by email@fmtatlseg.com, that's all from me. But watch out for the next episode very soon.
Running time 34:16
